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epidemic – beyond meaning widespread – implies a condition different from previous eras, from a different cultural situation. Do you have any thoughts about how we got to this epidemic of loneliness?
ue to be – with my wife, Alice. But the problem, which she herself in fact diagnosed, was that I wasn’t spending time with my friends. I had lost touch with so many friends. And once I rebuilt that, gosh, I felt so much bet- ter, so much less lonely. But it wasn’t about my relation- ship with my wife.
Murthy: I’m really glad you raised that. The pandemic poured fuel on the fire of loneliness, but the fire was burning long before. In fact, we’ve seen for probably a half century or more declining participation in so many of the organizations that used to bring us together, like religious organizations, recreational leagues, other ser- vice-based and community organizations. But we’ve also had other changes in the last couple of decades. The introduction of all kinds of technology into our lives has been a boon in many ways. It’s made us more efficient in some ways. It’s given us opportunities to get groceries and packages and goods delivered to our hous- es, to come to us without our even having to leave our homes. But therein comes also the potential downside, which is that our opportunities to interact with one another have also declined.
Friedman: I want to make sure I turn back to Chet and let him ask some questions. Thank you.
Sometimes we don’t think about that incidental interac- tion we have with somebody at the post office or the grocery store or waiting in line for coffee at the coffee shop. We don’t always think of those as important or consequential. But it turns out they really are. One of the experiences highlighting this was COVID – that first year of COVID, in particular, where people really pulled back from their interactions with one another. I remember talking to so many people on the phone who would say, “You know, I just miss sitting in a coffee shop and being around other people. I miss walking in the mall and seeing other people out there. I miss just seeing other people, whether I know them or not.”
Murthy: (laughs) I keep it easy and simple. I just tell people, “Call me Vivek,” that makes it really easy. That’s what my friends call me. Otherwise people do get confused on what to call me. And technically I’m referred to as a Vice Admiral by rank, even though my title is that of Surgeon General. Sometimes that can get confusing.
As human beings, our need for connection is profound. We need the intimate connections, connections with spouses and best friends with whom we can get support. We need friends in our lives, people we can have birth- day parties with, go on vacation with, take in a movie or a game with. But we also need a broader sense of com- munity where we feel we belong. It could be people we work with, people we volunteer with in our community, our neighbors. These different levels of connection are important. I think of them as intimate connections, rela- tional connections, and collective connections. And the reason that’s important to know is that if you are, let’s say, in a really fulfilling marriage but you don’t have friendships and you don’t have those collective commu- nity connections, you may feel lonely. And if you don’t know that there are these different types of connections that we need in our lives and you’re that person’s spouse, you might think, “Gosh, this is my fault. If they’re lonely, it’s probably because our relationship isn’t fulfilling.”
Murthy: That’s a good question. It comes in different ways. Sometimes I’ll read an article or a book that somebody wrote and it’ll inspire me. Sometimes my team will have ideas about who we should talk to. I have an endless list of people with whom I want to have conversations. I’m just hungry to learn more about dif- ferent pathways for creating well-being. The truth is, I’m a student of this as well. Like all of us, I’ve picked up a lot of lessons along the way, but I’ve got a lot more to learn. To me, one of the most important things we can do is to have conversations about these topics, recogniz- ing that we all have different lives, but every now and then, something you hear about how somebody navigat- ed a particular hardship in their life or a tool that they have or a life hack, if you will, that helps them manage some sort of challenge, sometimes that can help you. Not just help you in giving you a tool, but sometimes hearing these conversations can remind us that these issues are priorities, that as much as our lives in society are centered around work and traditional achievement, there are other things that may contribute as much if not more to our happiness and well-being.
However, that may not be the case at all. In fact, I say this as somebody who experienced loneliness at a time when I was in a very fulfilling relationship – and contin-
So being a part of these conversations can sometimes draw in me and I hope our listeners that it’s okay to pri- oritize your relationships, to prioritize physical activity, because that impacts your physical and your mental well-being. It’s okay to think about how to carve out time for yourself, because we all need some time to our- selves to be able to let ourselves settle and ground our- selves, to let that noise settle around us that sometimes distracts us and prevents us from figuring out what real- ly matters to us in our lives. I want people to feel that
Murthy: That was great.
Cooper: Thank you, Gillian. I think the most important question is, how do you say to people, “I’m a General and a Vice Admiral”?
Cooper: How do you choose who to be on your pod- casts?
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